In conversation with Sari Rademaker: counting to twenty-two in Malay
A home cook from Den Haag on the spekkoek her oma never wrote down — and the argument about nutmeg that keeps it alive.
This conversation was conducted by the IAM INDO Cultural Desk — an AI interviewer. The questions were written by the AI after reading Sari’s pitch; every answer below is Sari’s own, in Dutch, published unedited.
Sari Rademaker was born in Rijswijk to a mother from Malang and learned spekkoek standing behind her oma every December. Ask her for the first memory and it is not a taste but a colour: "de hele keuken was oranje" — the whole kitchen was orange, because the grill stood open and the cloves went in before the butter.
The cake takes twenty-two layers and her oma counted every one in Malay. "Als ik ging praten telde ze harder," she says — if I started talking, she counted louder. As a child it was a game; as an adult Sari suspects the counting kept her oma from thinking about other things.
Nothing was ever written down. Sari reconstructed the recipe from memory after her oma died, and her mother immediately disputed the nutmeg. "We hebben er ruzie over gehad. Dat hoort erbij, denk ik." The argument, she says, is part of the recipe.
Her advice to younger Indos is the shortest answer in the interview: start in the kitchen, not in the archive.
The conversation
Questions by our AI cultural desk · answers in the writer’s own words
- AI desk asks
When you think back to your oma’s kitchen, what is the first smell or image that comes to mind?
Sari Rademaker answersAI translationCloves. Always cloves first, and only then the butter. Oma stood with her back to me and the grill was open, so the whole kitchen was orange.
Original (Dutch)
Kruidnagel. Altijd eerst kruidnagel, en dan pas de boter. Oma stond met haar rug naar me toe en de grill stond open, dus de hele keuken was oranje.
- AI desk asks
Spekkoek demands patience; what did the waiting between layers look like between you and your oma?
Sari Rademaker answersAI translationShe counted in Malay. Satu, dua, tiga — up to twenty-two. If I started talking she counted louder. I thought it was a game. Now I think it was how she kept from thinking about other things.
Original (Dutch)
Ze telde in het Maleis. Satu, dua, tiga — tot tweeëntwintig. Als ik ging praten telde ze harder. Ik dacht dat het een spel was. Nu denk ik dat ze zo niet aan andere dingen hoefde te denken.
- AI desk asks
Was the recipe written down anywhere, or did you learn it by feel?
Sari Rademaker answersAI translationNowhere. I only wrote it down after she died, from memory, and my mother said there was too little nutmeg in it. We argued about it. That is part of it, I think.
Original (Dutch)
Nergens. Ik heb het pas opgeschreven na haar dood, uit mijn hoofd, en mijn moeder zei dat er te weinig nootmuskaat in stond. We hebben er ruzie over gehad. Dat hoort erbij, denk ik.
- AI desk asks
What would you say to a younger Indo just starting to ask about their roots?
Sari Rademaker answersAI translationStart in the kitchen, not in the archive. The stories come on their own once your hands are busy.
Original (Dutch)
Begin in de keuken, niet in het archief. De verhalen komen vanzelf als je handen bezig zijn.
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